Balance - Remove Bard's Root & Amnesia Unified CD

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Hylor
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Re: Balance - Remove Bard's Root & Amnesia Unified CD

Fin / Valar wrote: Tue Jan 24, 2023 8:58 pm
Idi wrote: Tue Jan 24, 2023 8:55 pm
Fin / Valar wrote: Tue Jan 24, 2023 8:39 pm

That's why skalds exist.
Yes that's true, so Mids need 2 toons to do the job done by 1 in Hib.... well it explains a lot
As much as this thread got a little flamey, this point here is my entire point. Bards do not need root because they already bring so much. Speed5, insta amensia, mezz, melee styles, buffs, heals, chants, SOS, and on and on it goes. Healers get 2 really strong instants on 5 min CDs and then basically everything else is dependent on them not being interrupted.... which a bard can do every 5 secs which just happens to be the out-of-combat timer to begin casting again. I play exclusively alb atm and even I admit healers have some strong stuff but they have the hardest time on the engagement. Bards are an all-in-one class where as the other two realms need 2-3 characters in a group to do what a bard does solo.

Bard: Heals, buffs, mezz, amensia, speed5, SOS, insta dd for rupts, etc
Albs: Minst for speed5/SOS and mez (typically only single target but has aoe), Sorc for aoe mez to win mez on engage (amnesia will stop void the spell landing), Amensia spam (not instant), cleric or friar for heals and buffs.
Mids: Healer for heals, buffs, cc, castable amnesia (but not instant and not quickcast), Skald for Speed5/SOS.

Factor in bards coming from the realm with baseline stun and you have a ton of CC in 1-2 toons vs the comps others realms must build. The fact that the meta for solid mid-group comps calls for 2 healers should say something. No one thinks 2 bards is necessary because the bard can do so much and everyone knows Alb utility is the most spread out of the three realms.

The removal of the bard root and unifying bard CD on amnesia will not stop people from playing bard or changing up how crucial they are in fights, it will just bring them more in line with what other realms have to deal with.

P.S. The reason why some hibs seem to go on and on about necros and minsts is because they are the only classes the bards can't insta lock down on engage while their casters stun nuke everything else to death. Every other class gets mezzed and if they wait to purge after the stun lands (while the rest of the group dies since you stand there mezzed) then the bard just roots you in place and if you don't got spells to cast then have fun being out of the fight for another 1 min+ because of one single class making you useless.
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Megrim
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Re: Balance - Remove Bard's Root & Amnesia Unified CD

Pff, the only thing ridiculous here is the QQ about Hibernia. At the moment the biggest zerg number wins most of time, this can be different when you get sandwiched between two realms, Zerg got splitted or you ´ve just a bad inc, Midgard won some fights today when they got higher numbers, get your ppl in the frontier, especially Albion, what do you expect when you got half of the ppl of the other two realms in frontier?

Image

@ Fin/Valar Midgard was always best realm on every server I played in daoc history, slow starter but with server progression they had always highest RPs and best groups, and I played Daoc since beta, and I got some Midgard experience too, you don ´t really wanna discuss about Midgard having a bad class/group setup, don ´t you? :lol:

Btw. I ´m outta here, the grass is greener in the neighbours hibernian garden discussions are kinda useless at some point ;) . Hib has often more players in RvR at the moment and some experienced leaders like Pushy, Smap and Pilz for example, that know what to do (usually), and that ´s the benefit, not amnesia or root from bard.
Things might change in future, let dem trollzerkers have some RR and templates and the early caster bonus from the beginning will fade. About Albion I dunno, they focused more on pve raids /BGs at the moment and seem to struggle, maybe they missing a good leader. But they have equal playernumbers so I guess they will close the gap.
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Fugax
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Re: Balance - Remove Bard's Root & Amnesia Unified CD

Think you guys need to go back to playing WoW when everything was even, and you had even fights, with instances. This is DAOC. The object of the game was every realm was different. Stop trying to 2023 shit and make it the same. Assuming you play one realm, and have no damn idea what "your" realm has that is considered to another realm. These cheesy ass rants on the forms are "laughable" at best. Again, this is DAOC. Get Good, and if you want your shit easy mode I suggest going back to WoW. Better yet.. This isn't "Phoenix" daoc server where they catered to every cry baby known to man (PK) that didn't like how the game play was going, and when they did, it turned there server into a complete abomination no one wanted to play anymore.

A well played bard will piss ya off, but again... A well played Mini will piss ya off. A well played Skald will piss ya off. Each of these three classes with speed 5 have abilities, and unfortunately for your sake all have different abilities to counter each other... This is what makes DAOC special in my personal opinion. It is not suppose to be easy mode for whatever build/char you want, and then expected it to be the same for the masses.

Good Day
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Reguile
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Re: Balance - Remove Bard's Root & Amnesia Unified CD

Hylor wrote: Tue Jan 24, 2023 10:50 pm
Fin / Valar wrote: Tue Jan 24, 2023 8:58 pm
Idi wrote: Tue Jan 24, 2023 8:55 pm

Yes that's true, so Mids need 2 toons to do the job done by 1 in Hib.... well it explains a lot
As much as this thread got a little flamey, this point here is my entire point. Bards do not need root because they already bring so much. Speed5, insta amensia, mezz, melee styles, buffs, heals, chants, SOS, and on and on it goes. Healers get 2 really strong instants on 5 min CDs and then basically everything else is dependent on them not being interrupted.... which a bard can do every 5 secs which just happens to be the out-of-combat timer to begin casting again. I play exclusively alb atm and even I admit healers have some strong stuff but they have the hardest time on the engagement. Bards are an all-in-one class where as the other two realms need 2-3 characters in a group to do what a bard does solo.

Bard: Heals, buffs, mezz, amensia, speed5, SOS, insta dd for rupts, etc
Albs: Minst for speed5/SOS and mez (typically only single target but has aoe), Sorc for aoe mez to win mez on engage (amnesia will stop void the spell landing), Amensia spam (not instant), cleric or friar for heals and buffs.
Mids: Healer for heals, buffs, cc, castable amnesia (but not instant and not quickcast), Skald for Speed5/SOS.

Factor in bards coming from the realm with baseline stun and you have a ton of CC in 1-2 toons vs the comps others realms must build. The fact that the meta for solid mid-group comps calls for 2 healers should say something. No one thinks 2 bards is necessary because the bard can do so much and everyone knows Alb utility is the most spread out of the three realms.

The removal of the bard root and unifying bard CD on amnesia will not stop people from playing bard or changing up how crucial they are in fights, it will just bring them more in line with what other realms have to deal with.

P.S. The reason why some hibs seem to go on and on about necros and minsts is because they are the only classes the bards can't insta lock down on engage while their casters stun nuke everything else to death. Every other class gets mezzed and if they wait to purge after the stun lands (while the rest of the group dies since you stand there mezzed) then the bard just roots you in place and if you don't got spells to cast then have fun being out of the fight for another 1 min+ because of one single class making you useless.
I couldn't agree more.
I'll take instant amnesia over casting amnesia any day. Bards can run and gun amnesia on a quick CD timer.
Make Bard's amnesia into something that has to be casted and I think it'd level the playing field a lot.. Since, you know, casting amnesia is so much more OP than instant casting it with a 5 sec timer. I'm not sure why bards need a root when they already have mezzes, speed and heals. Root has always been more of the druid's forte iirc...
There's a reason why so many people play certain classes, bards are one of them. Hib duo always consists of a bard and a caster. I wonder why is that. Mez/root/stun/heal/speed/instant amnesia for interrupts at longer range and then comes the DD once stunned. Takes so much skill to catch people with the fastest speed, amnesia them out of their speed, have the caster come up and stun/nuke as they still have speed. But yeah "get good." lol okay there.
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rgarrett
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Re: Balance - Remove Bard's Root & Amnesia Unified CD

Balance = remove necromancers and theurgs
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Fin / Valar
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Re: Balance - Remove Bard's Root & Amnesia Unified CD

Fugax wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 3:21 am Think you guys need to go back to playing WoW when everything was even, and you had even fights, with instances. This is DAOC. The object of the game was every realm was different. Stop trying to 2023 shit and make it the same. Assuming you play one realm, and have no damn idea what "your" realm has that is considered to another realm. These cheesy ass rants on the forms are "laughable" at best. Again, this is DAOC. Get Good, and if you want your shit easy mode I suggest going back to WoW. Better yet.. This isn't "Phoenix" daoc server where they catered to every cry baby known to man (PK) that didn't like how the game play was going, and when they did, it turned there server into a complete abomination no one wanted to play anymore.

A well played bard will piss ya off, but again... A well played Mini will piss ya off. A well played Skald will piss ya off. Each of these three classes with speed 5 have abilities, and unfortunately for your sake all have different abilities to counter each other... This is what makes DAOC special in my personal opinion. It is not suppose to be easy mode for whatever build/char you want, and then expected it to be the same for the masses.

Good Day
The point here is not "get good" or having the same feats on any class.... the point here is one, and only one: Bards are, by far, the best support class of the game. Leave alone mins and skalds or whatever, the fact is that, given the chance, anyone would want a bard in an optimum party setup, not a mins or a skald but a bard.
So, beginning from this point the answer is: is it really needed to give to the already top-of-the-pop support class another CC? Considering also that Hib is the realm where ANY caster has a BASELINE stun (no need to spec to have it lol), other 3 classes have root, another one has casted amnesia (baseline single and aoe, tell me which other class on Mid has amnesia apart Healers? no-one!).
This is the point of the discussion, if you want to solve it with "git gud" ok... but you're not giving anything to the discussion itself.
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Fin / Valar
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Re: Balance - Remove Bard's Root & Amnesia Unified CD

Megrim wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 1:45 am Pff, the only thing ridiculous here is the QQ about Hibernia. At the moment the biggest zerg number wins most of time, this can be different when you get sandwiched between two realms, Zerg got splitted or you ´ve just a bad inc, Midgard won some fights today when they got higher numbers, get your ppl in the frontier, especially Albion, what do you expect when you got half of the ppl of the other two realms in frontier?

Image

@ Fin/Valar Midgard was always best realm on every server I played in daoc history, slow starter but with server progression they had always highest RPs and best groups, and I played Daoc since beta, and I got some Midgard experience too, you don ´t really wanna discuss about Midgard having a bad class/group setup, don ´t you? :lol:

Btw. I ´m outta here, the grass is greener in the neighbours hibernian garden discussions are kinda useless at some point ;) . Hib has often more players in RvR at the moment and some experienced leaders like Pushy, Smap and Pilz for example, that know what to do (usually), and that ´s the benefit, not amnesia or root from bard.
Things might change in future, let dem trollzerkers have some RR and templates and the early caster bonus from the beginning will fade. About Albion I dunno, they focused more on pve raids /BGs at the moment and seem to struggle, maybe they missing a good leader. But they have equal playernumbers so I guess they will close the gap.
Midgard has a good melee setup in servers where casters cannot kite forever.... here, with endurance pots, the situation is really different. Charge for zerks is good but with this ridicolous RR cap a zerk right now must decide between charge OR purge and this is absurd...
This if we talk about 8man, if we talk about zerg warfare Midard has always been the worst realm for it. Because of CC on healers, because of TWF on BDs, because of AoE damage being inferior to Albs and Hibs and because the complete lack of spammable pets (Animists? no... Theurg? no... what we have? BDs that needs 6 sec and 25% of power bar to cast a pet that in a zerg will be killed in 10 seconds? c'mon!) The only Mid class that really shines in zerg warfare are Thanes, because of ST and Hammers and good survivability overall, and stop.
That's why of those numbers: simply going out there in the frontiers is much more fun for Hibs than it is for Albs and Mids right now, all that we are asking for is giving a little balance (which does not mean "remove bard's root" and it's good....balance is balance for everyone, check what is not going as it should go and fix it).
But as soon as someone tries to point out something about Hibs they get really prickly and start to rant about this or that, making comparisons and then saying that it's me doing that, talking about other classes to divert the issue and so on....
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Hylor
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Re: Balance - Remove Bard's Root & Amnesia Unified CD

One of the things I have noticed, and I try to point out whenever I can, is that no one ever really defends the idea of why bards should have a root. Look through all the "Ra Raw Hibernia is awesome!" comments and you won't see a single person defend them for having it. (Note: I played Hibernia for almost all of my experience on live and look forward to playing them after I have explored Alb some more. This is not some dumb complaint because of RVR. One day I will duo with my buddy who loves bard and I think about how we would feel with these changes then.)

There was at least one good comment on amnesia with their argument being that because of CD it is not spammable like those who have a casted version. This ignores the fact that bards have TWO amnesias on instant cast, one single and one aoe, and both are on very short 5 and 10 sec cooldowns. Add in that Mentalists get a spammable amnesia and the question is why do bards need to bring that at all let alone so often? I know the instant casts have been there for a long time so I suggest a small change by increasing the cooldowns and/or making sure they are on a unified cooldown just like instant debuffs on some casters.

I agree with the post saying bards are clearly the best support in the game and there is no real serious argument against it. Every group setup, small man or 8 man, ideally has: Speed5, heals, cc. The only class that has all of those things is bard and the other two realms have to do this with two classes and for albs ideally 3 (Minst, Sorc, Cleric/Friar).

Bards do not need a single target root. The single-target nature of it means it mostly affects group-on-group or small-man action and would be used minimally in zerg fights. A change like this removes any serious impact on large-scale play but better balances small-man play where bard is king of the hill for support/utility.

Amnesia on instant cast is here to stay (I assume). Spammable amnesia is an underrated yet powerful way to affect zerg fights. Mentalists already get spammable amnesia just like sorcs and healers (although how often do healers use amnesia over normal cc?) There is no need for bards to also have aoe amnesia on a 10 sec timer and a single target on a 5 sec timer.

If I was pushed I would say have the single on a 10 sec and aoe on a 15 sec CD and unified so you can only use one. If that is not possible because of different timers I would say scrap the aoe amnesia and put the single target on a 10 sec CD. Bards could still use them in either case to catch people (another thing no other realm has) and it would leave the aoe amnesia spam to mentalists and limit the punishing nature of bards having it on instant cast when used in group-on-group or small-man fights.

These are not monstrous changes. The changes would likely affect only smaller-scale combat which needs some gentle balancing. Bards would still be considered the king of the support classes even with these changes.

I do think Eden is at a largely balanced place with some classes needing gentle love and some needing gentle shoves down. I hope the devs will consider some form of these suggestions. Any discussion about other class balances like Thanes, necros, minst, etc should all be saved for another thread.
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